Talk:Rulings:Beast - Relentless

Jump to navigation Jump to search

Beast - Relentless

Set: 2 Card No.: 70

Oracle Text: Whenever an opposing character is damaged, you may ready this character.

Current Definitions from Lorcana Comprehensive Rules as of August 9, 2024:

5.1.3. Damaged – A card that has at least 1 damage is considered damaged.

9.1. Representation of Damage 9.1.1. Damage on a character is represented by damage counters. Each damage counter normally represents 1 damage; any damage counter intended to represent more than 1 damage counts as a separate damage counter for each 1 damage it represents.

9.2. “Put” 9.2.1. If an effect puts a damage counter onto a character or location, that doesn’t count as dealing damage to that character or location and isn’t affected by modifications to damage that is dealt (e.g., Resist).

9.3. Moving Damage Counters 9.3.1. Moving damage counters has the effect of removing a specified number of counters from a chosen character and putting the same number of damage counters on.

Problem: There are three different ways for an opposing character to accumulate damage counters; Deal, Move, and Put. While dealing damage is clear to whether or not an opposing character is "damaged" after a challenge or resolution of an effect. I believe that Move and Put will resolve in an opposing character being "damaged" as well. Thus, this will resolve the oracle text on Beast - Relentless.

1. Base Case - Dealing Damage

Consider the oracle text, "Whenever an opposing character is damaged". The word "whenever" triggers any number of times during your turn when an opposing character's number of damage counters increases from one game state to the next. The word "damaged" is a transitive verb meaning that a character The simplest base case is a character challenging another character. Aside from any nullifying effects, like resist, a character that challenges and has strength greater than 0 will successfully "deal" damage to the opposing character. This is made clear from the game state.

- Game State M: "Opposing Character"

- Player initiates: Character challenge OR Action dealing damage

- Game State M + 1: "Opposing Character +N Damage"

The same is true for an action that would "deal" damage to an opposing character. Thus, this will resolve the effect for the oracle text on Beast - Relentless.

2. "Schrodinger's Characters

Suppose there is a box and we take a character and put it in the box. A player then takes an action followed by potentially resolving some abilities in the bag. We then take the character out of the box and there is no change in status (i.e. No damage counters accumulated) for the character. Would the character be damaged? No, the character has not accumulated any damage counters and thus is undamaged. This is demonstrated by the game state.

- Game State M: "Opposing Character"

- Player initiated action and possible triggered abilities

- Game State M + 1: "Opposing Character"

Now, take the same box and character and put the character in the box. The player then takes an action followed potentially resolving some abilities in the bag. The character is now removed from the box and has accumulated some damage counters. Would the character be damaged? Yes, the character has accumulated damage counters and thus "is damaged" or has become damaged.

- Game State M: "Opposing Character"

- Player initiated action and possible triggered abilities

- Game State M + 1: "Opposing Character +N Damage"

The game state demonstrates that the accumulation of damage counters from one game state to another between an action initiated by a player is representative of a character being damaged or becoming damaged. This most recent example of the game state is similar to the "base case of dealing damage" game state. The only difference between the two is the inclusion of "dealing" damage. This means that the net change in the amount of damage counters directly affects the status of a character. Consider the following proposed definitions of "Damaging" and "Healing".

Damaging: There is a net increase in the number of damage counters on a character after a player initiates an action. The addition of damage counters between game states after a player's action constitutes a character being damaged.

Healing: There is a net decrease in the number of damage counters on a character after a player initiates an action. The reductions of damage counters between game states after a player's action constitutes a character being healed.

3. Lorcana Comprehensive Rules

Section 9.1.1 of the Comprehensive Rules for Lorcana states that "Damage on a character is represented by damage counters." This means that character that have damage counters are "damaged characters". However, there is no clear definition of a character "being damaged". There are instances of "dealing damage" and "putting/moving damage counters. In section 9.2 "Put", it states "If an effect puts a damage counter onto a character or location, that doesn’t count as dealing damage to that character or location and isn’t affected by modifications to damage that is dealt (e.g., Resist)." The "Put" keyword nullifies the effect of "resist" that counteracts a character being "dealt" damage. But as explained earlier, this doesn't prevent the character from accumulating damage from the put and therefore the character is being damaged. Yes, the character was not "dealt damage" but it received damage counters. A simple question is "Is the character receiving damage counters?" If yes, then the character has been damaged.

4. Other Cards

Consider the card from set 3, Hydra - Deadly Serpent, the oracle text states "Whenever this character is dealt damage, deal that much damage to chosen opposing character." This card clear communicates the source of which the damage is being received; "dealt". "Put" or "Move" would bypass this character's oracle trigger and allow it to become more damaged between game states.

Next look at Beast - Wolfsbane: "Rush...When you play this character, exert all opposing damaged characters.", Beast - Tragic Hero: "Shift...At the start of your turn, if this character has no damage, draw a card. Otherwise, he gets +4 STR this turn.", and Beast - Selfless Protector: "Whenever one of your other characters would be dealt damage, put that many damage counters on this character instead." Wolfbane's text is triggered on playing the character and exerting "opposing damaged characters." Opposing "damaged" characters here is describing the character that have damage counters. Contrary to Relentless, Wolfbane is using "damaged" as an adjective for character that possess damage counters as opposed to a character that "is [being] damaged". Tragic Hero has "if this character has no damage" clearly referring to the character possessing no damage counters and this triggers at the beginning of a player's turn (i.e. the first instance of the game state and not a comparison between two game states). Finally, there is Selfless Protector which allows you to prevent damage from being done to another character and "put" the damage on the character itself. The intent of the card is to allow other characters to not be banished from being "dealt" damage. Which convey a mechanism in intent for play that would manifest as the Spirit of the Card.

5. The Spirit of the Card

Lorcana has base rules and those rules mention that the Oracle text of a card will supersede the the base rules. This mean that cards were made with the intent of certain actions, mechanism, synergies, and combos in mind. This is the "Spirit of the Card". The Spirt of Beast - Relentless is to damage opposing characters and ready him for potential questing, singing, or challenging. Because the card's oracle text specifically does not mention being "dealt" damage or damage counters being accumulated in a certain way, this means the spirit of the card is to allow players to find unique and creative ways of applying damage to opposing characters to resolve his effect. Because there are cards that are word specifically for certain scenarios mean there was intent to the design of how the oracle text would be trigger; see Hyrdra - Deadly Serpent.

5. Real World Analogy

Consider you have a vehicle and a person took a sledgehammer and "dealt" damage to your vehicle. Would you say that the vehicle has damages and you deserved to be compensated for said damages? Consider your vehicle again and a person took a bucket of paint and "put" it on your vehicle. Is the vehicle undamaged and therefore you don't deserve compensation? Clearly, a change into a negative state for your vehicle would constitute damages. The same could be said about characters.

6. Future releases are meant to enhance and counter previous releases

When the developers of Lorcana make new releases, the new additions of the cards are meant to enhance the players' experience with the game. These additions allow for more creativity. The developers intend for the new additions from future release to interact with the previous editions to either enhance or diminish effects of other cards. This allows the game to not stagnate from overplayed metas. Because of this "intention", other cards should be allowed to benefit from the purpose of releasing new editions into the Lorcana gaming environment. To not do so would be a disservice to the game itself.

Conclusion

From the base case of "dealing damage" meaning to a character being or becoming "damaged", I have demonstrated that the net increase in damage counters from one game state to another after a player's action results in a character becoming "damaged" from either "Dealing", "Putting", or "Moving". The Lorcana comprehensive rules explicitly state what how damage is represented but not what constitutes a character being damaged. Thus, it is implied that the accumulation of damage counters means a character is "being damaged". While a character that "has damage [counters] is "damaged". From the current playset, I have found examples that demonstrate the intent of a card, such as Hydra - Deadly Serpent, and what conditions allow the oracle text to be triggered. Because of the oracle text, there is a "Spirit of the Card" that has a purpose to trigger and allow future cards to either enhance or diminish it's capabilities. Therefore, the Oracle Text for Beast - Relentless should trigger when an opposing character is accumulating damage counters from Dealing, Putting, or Moving.

The definition of PUT in Section 9.2.1 does adequately describe that "putting" damage is not "dealing damage". However, it does not state that "putting" is not "damaging" a character. The same is true of "Moving". The Oracle Text for Beast - Relentless does not specify opposing character being "dealt" damaged. According to the current version of the comprehensive rules of the game and the non-edited oracle text of Beast - Relentless, Dealing, Putting, or Moving damage counters will trigger Beast's ability.

There are three options. The first is Beast - Relentless is meant to have this wording to enhance the card's ability and synergy with future release. The second is Beast - Relentless has a typo and the typo allows for triggered abilities that was not intended. The third is the Comprehensive rules need to be updated to support clarification.

--Shane Z. Guzmán (talk) 14:34, 2 December 2024 (-08)

Shane's Dissertation

Unfortunately, while that was a whole lot of impressive work, it is entirely invalidated by the glossary entry that defines "is damaged" as exactly equivalent to "is dealt damage".

Beast - Relentless's ability is therefore only triggered when an opposing character is dealt damage.

--GooglyGlimmers (talk) 14:03, 3 December 2024 (-08)